Two highly respected theologians recently began a debate on why God would allow so much suffering in the world if He is good and all-powerful.
Bart Ehrman, the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and author of God’s Problem, and N.T. Wright, the Bishop of Durham for the Church of England and author of Evil and the Justice of God began their “Blogalogue” on Beliefnet.com last week.
“Suffering increasingly became a problem for me and my faith,” confessed Ehrman, who was an evangelical Christian most of his life but is now an agnostic. “How can one explain all the pain and misery in the world if God – the creator and redeemer of all – is sovereign over it, exercising his will both on the grand scheme and in the daily workings of our lives?”
Ehrman went on in his first blog to question why God didn’t stop starvation, droughts, or answer the prayers of Holocaust victims.
“If God is concerned to answer my little prayers about my daily life, why didn't he answer my and others’ big prayers when millions were being slaughtered by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, when a mudslide killed 30,000 Columbians in their sleep, in a matter of minutes, when disasters of all kinds caused by humans and by nature happened in the world?” the distinguished religious studies professor asked.
N.T. Wright, the Christian representative, responded, saying Ehrman is appealing too much to emotions.
“You spend a good deal of time in the book, and even in your brief posting, detailing some of these horrors, as though to remind readers of what (surely?) all intelligent people know already,” Wright responded.
“You’re not implying, are you, that people (like me, for instance) who still hold to Christian faith are somehow failing to notice these horrors, or to reflect soberly and deeply on them?”
Wright compared his own books, Evil and the Justice of God and Surprised by Hope, with Ehrman’s book on how they explain the call of Abraham. Wright explains that the call of Abraham is the moment when “God launches the long-range plan to rescue the world from its misery,” as compared to Ehrman who sees it as a calling for Abraham to have a special relationship with God.
“In other words, I read the story of Israel as a whole (not merely in its individual parts, which by themselves, taken out of that context, might be reduced to ‘Israel sinned; God punished them,’ etc.,) as the story of theodicy-in-practice: ‘this is the narrative through whose outworking the creator God will eventually put all things to rights,’” wrote the English theologian.
In his latest blog, the Bishop of Durham added to his argument, pointing out that during Jesus’ time it also did not appear like God was in control. Jews believed if the messiah came then it would mean victory for Israel against her enemies and new levels of purity attained.
“In the same way, it doesn’t look like what we would want (God abolishing disease, war, hatred, natural disaster, etc. at a stroke),” Wright noted.
The all-powerful and all-loving God allowed his son Jesus to be crucified, which is not what is commonly associated with the idea of power, he highlighted.
“Near the heart of Jesus’ proclamation lies a striking redefinition of power itself, which looks as though it’s pointing in the direction of God’s ‘running of the world’ (if that’s the right phrase) in what you might call a deliberately, almost studiedly, self-abnegating way, running the world through an obedient, and ultimately suffering, human being, with that obedience, and especially that suffering, somehow instrumental in the whole process,” Wright contends.
“What ‘we would want God to do’ – to have God measure up to our standards of ‘how a proper, good and powerful God would be running the world!’ – seems to be the very thing that Jesus was calling into question.”
The two theologians are expected to post their last comments this week in the six-part series.
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Comments
mane3366, Epicurus's Trilemma or any variant thereof is a false trilemma.
Why would “God” be required to completely prevent suffering, if “God” is able and willing to completely eliminate suffering according to "his" own timing?
BTW, it appears as though your objection relies on equivocating the concepts of “is” and “ought.” Specifically, you are trying to define who and what “God” “is” according to who and what “God” “ought” to be in your eyes. So, as a result, if you believe that “God” “ought” to completely prevent suffering, then you say that “God” cannot exist because suffering still exists.
However, since the idea that “God” “ought” to completely prevent suffering is subjective opinion, the soundness of the said trilemma falls apart.
Hi, I´ve been interested in this subject for years and read many opinions on the issue of God and suffering and i must say that there is no way we can explain how a Omnipotent and Good God would allow suffering, especially of the inocent.
Teologitians try every kind of twist of language and concept but it just doesnt do it...its simpy impossible...human suffering cant be compatible with an omnipotent and good God.
So there are 4 hipotesys:
1. God is not Omnipotent
2. God is not Good.
3. There is no God.
4. Our rational mind simply cannot understand what is going on, so these discutions have no meaning.
aimes said...
<<If you care to invest some time into learning the truth, you should start with a great book, called The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. >>
Josh MacDowell has sullied his reputation with what I believe to be a "false testimony." He makes several false claims about his life, his family and his travel, and when he was faced with it he blamed the writer who wrote the article.
I don't read material written by discredited, nonpeer-reviewed sources. Josh Mac Dowell is not a scientist, he's a religious zealot.
What really bothers me is as a "Christian," he's willing to lie to people in order to make others think more highly of him, than he may be lying in his books.
aimes said...
<<Ancient cities and civilizations only mentioned in the Bible, like Jericho and Ur have been excavated. Outside witnesses, such as the Jewish historian Josephus, the 1st century Roman Tacitus, and Emperor Trajan, among others, attest to the fact that many of the stores mentioned in the Bible are true. >>
Do you believe then, that EVERYTHING written in the Bible is true? Do you for instance believe animals talked, the sun stopped in the sky, the sun revolves around the Earth? Those three questionable Bible errors are proof enough to me that mythology, a desire for human understanding of a good explanation and religiously inspired thinking of the two are the crux of the matter. However, you are free to believe what you will, DID I ever say otherwise? No, I only spoke that my beliefs are for myself.
<<It is obvious to me that you only wish to argue your point, and God is not the author of confusion.>>
So asking questions that are pertinant to the topic demonstrates I only wish to argue? BTW, I'm not confused. I am however disappointed that you haven't answered any of my questions.
aimes said
<<But if you only care to sit here and argue and be condescending, then you can continue making your “point” online just the way you are. As for me however, it is time for me to read my Bible.>>
I'm being condescending because I have "dared" to challenged your Biblically based knowledge? I asked you several questions and none of them got an answer. Asking legitimate questions that are pertinent to the topic is not condescending. However, calling people "Dear One," and saying "You seem to have a problem with God," and "You have animosity towards God" is condescending. Why? Because it suggests that you think you know me better than I know myself, and take a tone that suggests my attitude is out of line. I presented my questions honestly, and instead of you answering them, you ANALYZED by behavior.
Will you please rethink my questions and answer them?
<<And as far as you thinking you’re not a sinner. Romans 3:23 says you are.>>
It doesn't matter to me, what the Bible says, the Bible has 143 contradictions in it, so why should I believe I am a sinner if someone got some things wrong. People are wrong ALL the time, it's forgivable in my estimation, but if there are identifiably 143 contradictions, needless to say someone claiming to be inspired by God may just be wrong about sin. However, you can believe you are sinful ALL you want, heck, you can call me sinner until you lose your voice, I however, am not obliged in the least to accept that theory.
<<And since the Bible was inspired by God and is His word, I prefer to believe what He says about you, rather than what you say about yourself. May God Bless you and keep you, always.>>
No, "and since YOU believe the Bible is inspired by God... " can you see where you're being condescending? Your claiming an impossibility- you can not prove the Bible is anymore inspired by God than you can prove A Theif in The Night is.
However, you ignored my questions in order to puff yourself up in an attempt to demonstrate your beliefs are superior to mine- well, there's the proof that you'd be hard pressed at this point in the venture to disprove just how condescending you really are being to me. Do you have any more rocks to throw at me in the name of your lord?
lewr2 said...
<<Hautechick.... how do you know you just die? Have you ever just died? >>
I think this is what I actually said, "The FACT of life, is that it ends in death, and realistically everyone will one day die- it's not the result of sin, it is a natural FACT of the process called LIFE." I have had family members, friends and have read about alot of people who have died to conclude it is a NATURAL fact of life. Do you think maybe you just missed my point, or do you think others who read this won't be able to read what I actually wrote? And, do you really think people reading this board can't spot your illogic?
Hautechick.... how do you know you just die? Have you ever just died?
hautechick:
Much of what I say can and has been substantiated outside of the Bible. There are secular text, including Roman and Greek text that confirm some of the stories in the Bible. There is extra biblical evidence, including archaeological and historical finds that substantiate it. There are skeletal remains being found the world over, on the top of mountains and summits that point to the "probability" that at one time, the entire earth may have been covered in water- the universal flood. And it’s good that you have studied and read about other religions, but I do believe that only in Christianity is such a bold claim made, that we are all sinners in need of a Savior, and that the only way to salvation is through One, and that Is Jesus Christ and Him alone. One great thing about the Bible that no other book can claim is the fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies. Other religious books and so called “prophets” made claims, and they were wrong. But the prophecies in the Bible have come true, and we are still waiting for others to be fulfilled. Not one prophecy was given by God, and was false. And since you like back up, read Gen 3:15, which was fulfilled in Galatians 4:4, read Isaiah 7:14, which was fulfilled in Matthew 1:18, read Gen 22:18, which was fulfilled in Matt 1:1. I could go on and on, but I have to get to reading my Bible.
Ancient cities and civilizations only mentioned in the Bible, like Jericho and Ur have been excavated. Outside witnesses, such as the Jewish historian Josephus, the 1st century Roman Tacitus, and Emperor Trajan, among others, attest to the fact that many of the stores mentioned in the Bible are true. It is obvious to me that you only wish to argue your point, and God is not the author of confusion. If you care to invest some time into learning the truth, you should start with a great book, called The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.
But if you only care to sit here and argue and be condescending, then you can continue making your “point” online just the way you are. As for me however, it is time for me to read my Bible. And as far as you thinking you’re not a sinner. Romans 3:23 says you are. And since the Bible was inspired by God and is His word, I prefer to believe what He says about you, rather than what you say about yourself. May God Bless you and keep you, always.
aimes said...
<<I don’t need to know you, but I know that as a human, you are a sinner, and the wages of sin is death.>>
I don't recall asking you to know me. I don't usually get to know others through the internet. I prefer to get to know others by meeting them face to face. I think that you should reserve your judgment that "as a human you are a sinner" for those who believe that. I don't happen to believe that statement. Just as you are free to believe you are a sinner saved by grace, I am free to believe that I do not sin. The FACT of life, is that it ends in death, and realistically everyone will one day die- it's not the result of sin, it is a natural FACT of the process called LIFE.
aimes said...
<<Regarding suffering- Why does God allow suffering to exist in the world? There are numerous reasons, and I’m sure there are a few that we don’t even know. First, suffering is usually the result of what we ourselves have done.>>
You said "usually, the result of what we ourselves have done" soooo, I'm not suffering in the least, and I bet I could find many others who'll attest to not suffering; so you can't possibly be correct in your assumption.
<<Our past sins may cause us to endure suffering.>>
Past sins as in former lives- do you believe in reincarnation?
<<Secondly, suffering increases perseverance, which strengthens our faith in God and our testimonies to His faithfulness.>>
I persever, am having a great life, have great relationships and and am very healthy, sooo, how does that make your assumption correct?
<<Thirdly, suffering exists because humans are agents of free will.>>
So are you saying because of FREE WILL humans cause the suffering of others? Then it can't be evil or a devil behind the suffering, right?
aimes said...
<<hautechick:
What do you think about God? After reading your e-mails, it appears to me (and I don’t know you, and I am not judging you, but I am basing it on the tone of your e-mails here), that you do have a problem with God. You have some sort of animosity towards Him, or maybe you feel He let you down or something.
I think about GOD as any reasonable person raised does. I just don't buy into the mythology about GOD. I have studied other religions and most have very similar explanations for the Creation story, the "Fall of Man" and the redemption story. I have no problem at all with God, I just experience God differently than perhaps you do, and if that makes me seem like I have a problem, than you are wron.
The irony is, as I read your post to me, is that while I express myself and my understanding of God in realistic terms with honesty and facts, you can't substantiate what you say with anything outside the Bible.
FWIW, I have no animosity towards God, and I don't feel God has let me down at all- my life is above prosperous, my health is excellent, my family and friends love me and I love them, and yet I would never dare to say it's because God favors me or something ludicris as that.
hautechick:
What do you think about God? After reading your e-mails, it appears to me (and I don’t know you, and I am not judging you, but I am basing it on the tone of your e-mails here), that you do have a problem with God. You have some sort of animosity towards Him, or maybe you feel He let you down or something. However, you need to know that God is a sovereign God, and as such, is free to do anything He pleases, and no one, NO ONE can make a case against Him because He is sovereign! However, He is a loving and merciful God, and cares for us tremendously. In fact, the Bible says that God doesn’t wish for any of us to perish, but for us all to come to repentance (that includes you). He is fair and just. We all deserve to die for the sins we have committed. I don’t need to know you, but I know that as a human, you are a sinner, and the wages of sin is death. Right there, God would be justified in allowing each and every last one of us to perish, and we would have no defense to counter it. But that’s not what He wants.
Humans in heaven will be better behaved because in heaven, you get a glorified body, just like Jesus after His resurrection. There is no sin in heaven. Those in heaven are those who truly love God, and submitted to Him and His will here on earth. Therefore, we have no problems submitting to Him in heaven. Those who oppose God, and continue doing their own will and engaging in carnal and wicked things in opposition to God, will end up in hell with the false prophet and the anti Christ(Rev 20:15). The DEVIL and his DEMONS will not be in Heaven (Rev 20:10), influence us to do wicked things in opposition of Gods will. Therefore, sin is GONE. This is why we’ll be “better- behaved” in heaven. And yes, Heaven does exist – read Matthew 5:3, Matthew 5:48, Matthew 11:11, Revelation 21: 3-4, Acts 2:2, and so does HELL read Luke 16:23, revelation 19:20.
If you are truly serious about knowing God, I would encourage you to say a prayer, a simple one, and ask God to reveal Himself to you. Sit down, and maybe read a couple of chapters from the Bible. I’d recommend the book of John, because it’s a great place to start, and truly tells a lot about the character of God. If you are sincere, and are truly seeking God, you will find Him.
God is always in control. He is the Creator of ALL things, which is stated in the Bible numerous times (Isaiah 40:28, Isaiah 45:18, Genesis 1:1). The Bible is the inspired, inerrant, and infallible word of God. Therefore, no, you cannot separate God from the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16 says that all scripture is God breathed. The Holy Spirit also helps in interpreting the Bible. Even when Jesus, God’s own son was being beaten and crucified, God did not stop it, but allowed it. In fact, over 200 Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled through Jesus Christ. God knew exactly what would happen to Jesus, and it happened. He didn’t cause it, but allowed it. If Jesus Himself was broken and crucified, what makes you think you are any better? What makes you think God should save you from suffering when Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Messiah Himself endured suffering? While all but one of the apostles were martyred for what they knew and what they taught, why are you so special that God should prevent any harm from coming to you?
God knew that humans would be selfish, wicked unworthy sinners, and yet still He created us, loves us, and gives us opportunities to repent. That is why I praise Him! Of course He knew humans would screw things up, and have to be “saved”, but He had it all planned. It’s like if you have kids, you know your kids will give you some discomfort and problems, yet we are still willing to have them. God is the same way, He is our Father and loves us, and still wants a relationship with us. It’s a wonder He didn’t just destroy us all and move on, because I know He could have. He must think we’re really worth something.
Regarding suffering- Why does God allow suffering to exist in the world? There are numerous reasons, and I’m sure there are a few that we don’t even know. First, suffering is usually the result of what we ourselves have done. Our past sins may cause us to endure suffering. Secondly, suffering increases perseverance, which strengthens our faith in God and our testimonies to His faithfulness. Thirdly, suffering exists because humans are agents of free will. As long as you are on earth with free will, you can apply your free will to someone else’s disadvantage, thus increasing their suffering. A fourth reason God allows suffering can be found in the book of Job, which by the way, is a great book to read to learn more about the reasons we humans suffer. I think the answer might surprise you. Tell us why did God allow Job to endure so much suffering?
ronwilson4u: So does that mean that because both of my parents died a miserable, slow death that they are being punished more than anyone else who didn't die a painful slow death younger than they reasonable should have expected? Or were they being punished in general for all of mankinds' sin? I have my doubts on both counts.
Suffering and death are a direct result of sin, and all have sinned, so all people on earth experience suffering caused by life's trials and tribulations and everyone faces the prospect of death. This is not paradise. The wonderful promise of God is eternal life in a glorified body with no suffering, which is the hope of every Christian.
Hope Page: itsallaboutjesusnotme.blogspot.com