In a plea for unity, the Archbishop of Canterbury has told conservative Anglicans establishing a separate fellowship within the Anglican Communion to “think very carefully about the risks entailed.”
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(Photo: AP Images / Judi Bottoni, FILE)In this Friday Sept. 21, 2007 file picture, Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, left, and Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, walk into a press conference in New Orleans. Anglican theological conservatives from around the world are convening a strategy summit starting Wednesday, June 18, 2008 as the global Anglican Communion splinters over Scripture, salvation and homosexuality.
Conservative Anglicans wrapped up the Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCON) in Jerusalem on Sunday with a statement affirming their desire to remain within the Anglican Communion but within the structure of a new fellowship headed by a council of bishops. Anglicanism was not, the statement added, “determined necessarily through recognition by the Archbishop of Canterbury.”
In a statement issued in response on Monday, Dr. Rowan Williams, the spiritual leader of the Anglican Communion, said that the final statement from GAFCON leaders contained “much that is positive and encouraging” about their priorities and that the vast majority of Anglicans shared their “tenets of orthodoxy.”
He also addressed concerns over the uniqueness of Christ and the “absolute imperative” of evangelism, stating they were “not in dispute in the common life of the Communion.”
Williams warned, however, that GAFCON’s proposals were “problematic in all sorts of ways.”
“A ‘Primates’ Council’ which consists only of a self-selected group from among the Primates of the Communion will not pass the test of legitimacy for all in the Communion,” he stated. “And any claim to be free to operate across provincial boundaries is fraught with difficulties, both theological and practical.”
U.S. Episcopal Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori lamented the GAFCON statement. "Anglicanism has always been broader than some find comfortable. This statement does not represent the end of Anglicanism, merely another chapter in a centuries-old struggle for dominance by those who consider themselves the only true believers."
In recent years, bishops from the Global South have provided leadership to parishes in North America that have split from The Episcopal Church – the U.S. branch of Anglicanism – over the U.S. denomination's liberal drift from Scripture and Anglican tradition. GAFCON leaders said on Sunday that they would continue to offer alternative pastoral oversight to breakaway congregations within the Communion’s liberal member churches.
Williams warned that exercising episcopal or primatial authority over huge geographical and cultural divides would result in an “obvious strain."
He added, “[H]ow is effective discipline to be maintained in a situation of overlapping and competing jurisdictions?”
While Williams urged fellow Anglicans not to “impute selfish or malicious motives” to those seeking alternative oversight, he said that the issue of discerning genuine theological grievances was “becoming very serious.”
“How is a bishop or primate in another continent able to discriminate effectively between a genuine crisis of pastoral relationship and theological integrity, and a situation where there are underlying non-theological motivations at work?” he asked. He pointed to interventions in dioceses with “unquestionably orthodox” leadership not because of theological differences but personal or administrative disagreements.
The Archbishop of Canterbury said the solution to the challenges was “not to dismiss the existing structures of the Communion.”
“If they are not working effectively, the challenge is to renew them rather than to improvise solutions that may seem to be effective for some in the short term but will continue to create more problems than they solve,” he said. Continue >>
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hlerwin -
One of these people I mentioned (Rev Don Piper) was dead for 90 minutes. It was no dream. It was reality. The others, though not dead for as long, were clinically dead; no heart beat, no brains waves, nothing.
Spend 1 hr 37 minutes of your time and look at the video, "To Hell and Back" I suggested. It is well worth the watch. The man who wrote the book and made the documentary is a retired cardiologist who has witnessed many people who have died on him and he was able to bring back to life. Those that he interviewed about what they experienced all talked about life not ending when you die.
Jesus illustrated this truth in a story about a beggar man named Lazarus and a rich man who both died. Lazarus was conforted in the bosom of Father Abraham and the rich man, an unrepentant sinner, went to hell where he was tormented in a flame of fire. See Luke 16:19-31.
The rich man knew he was there because he did not repent. He had 5 brothers that still remained on the earth that also were living unrepentant lives. He did not want them to come where he was. He requested of Father Abraham to send Lazarus back from the dead to testify to them of hell and to repent so they would not come there. Father Abraham answered, "...If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, those one rose from the dead."(Luke 16:31)
Your rejection of the stories of people who have died and came back to life that testify that there is a life after death only goes to validate the Word of God.
Perhaps one day you will hear the gospel of Jesus Christ from your heart and will receive Jesus as Savior and Lord.
AAaaahhhhh, .. dang, gone-it, believer; you just made me spill my V-8
uh, yeah, it's a ... a, uh... filet-o-fish, actually.
rolln, that's not a Big Mac I see in your other hand!?
believer-
Go get'em warrior. I hear the sabers rattl'n and the demons squeal'n.
I'll just be sitting along the sideline with my v-8 (w/umbrella, lawnchair and sunglasses). So don't mind me.
hlerwin, so when it comes to spiritual truth according to you everything is a matter of a roll of the dice, nothing is black or white but a matter of personal interpretation?
Yes.....in your opinion, believer.
hlerwin, you're right God is not a liar and therefore God's Word in its' original autographs is true as well. And Christ is not a liar and when He declares in God's Word that He is the Life, the Truth, and the Way and no one can go unto the Father but through Him He is telling the truth as well. So then the only way a person can enter into a personal relationship with God is by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone because God is not a liar.
None of us is powerful enough to make God a liar. That's just finite human thinking. He's a lot bigger, I expect, than any of us can imagine. Still, I think lots of you posters limit Him and think He shared the same prejudices and cultural biases that some of us do. Besides, I could never idolize a printed book.
hlerwin, black and white thinking is only a problem when we try to use it in gray areas. And when it comes to the Word of God as I've said before, "God said it that settles it!" period. And if we say that the clearly black and white issues of the Bible are not true then as wb said we make God a liar and we remain hopelessly lost.
hlerwin,
With Christ, it IS all or nothing. Either He was sent by God to live a sinless life, suffered and died to pay the price of our sins, or He did not.
If He did not, then we are all doomned and His death was in vain. Because He would then be a liar, not a good man or someone who could be trusted. And if you cant trust Him in one area, what makes you ble to discern what areas you COULD trust Him in?
Psalm 34:8 "O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. "
A message From God to all unbelievers. Try God and see for yourselves who he is! A little Trust goes a very long way with God.
Matthew 17:20 "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."
You only need Faith Jesus is who he says he is.
John 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
It's "all-or-nothing" thinking, like "black-and-white" thinking and "you-are-either-with-us-or-against-us" thinking, that causes such strife in this world. That last mode of thinking, espoused by a dry alcoholic, is what got us into thsi wretched war in Iraq. Spare me leaders who think like that! I don't think McCain or Obama think this way. Thank God!!!
He did not die in vain. We have learned so much from Christ's suffering and death. This statement from you reflects the "all-or-nothing" attitude that some simpleminded (and some not-so-simpleminded) religious people get into.
hlerwin, yes it is my firmly held conviction, but more importantly it's God's truth and I just don't see how a person who claims to be a Christian can get around that fact. But if Christ is not the only way then He died in vain and God, His heavenly Father, allowed Him to suffer a death He did not need to suffer.
believer, I think you have misread me. I don't subscribe to all those other (Eastern or whatever) views. I was born into a Christian home, so I hope I have bloomed where I was planted. (Is that the right metaphor?) I have no interest in "hedging my bets," though I am aware of many who do that. As far as "....but from the God of the Bible's perspective that is not an option because Christ Himself proclaims that He alone is able to save us and bring us into a personal relationship with the God of the Bible," that is your firmly held conviction. Butthat does not make it true. If the scripture itself does not convince me of that view, certainly your well intentioned opinion about salvation will not persuade me, either.
hlerwin, at college I knew an agnostic whose view of God was that he wasn't sure if there was a God or not but he wasn't gonna do anything to get Him mad. With all respect it sounds like you do much of the same with your view of God and your view of the afterlife is a good example. I'm not sure if there is or isn't an afterlife but just in case I'll fill certain squares in my life to do ensure if there is I'll wind up in the right place. So I'll keep all my options open by agreeing with just about everybody. So I'll become a Christian but also hold on to the beliefs of Eastern religions and so on. And from a human perspective that makes all the sense in the world, but from the God of the Bible's perspective that is not an option because Christ Himself proclaims that He alone is able to save us and bring us into a personal relationship with the God of the Bible. My hope is that one day you will see and embrace that truth. That salvation comes by grace alone, through faith alone, in and by Christ alone.
star, there are similar testimonies of Buddhists who "came back from the dead," as well as from Hindus and Daoists. Every culture has these stories. One writer I recall (but whose name is lost) stated that all religion springs from these "dreams" we have, whether overnight or in a hospital coma or a twenty-minute "dead zone." Still, none of these is really death. When you are actually dead, you do NOT come back. My father had the same experience in 1932 in a hospital. Before I was 10 years old, I had heard my father describe the whole scene, as I later read it in so many "back-from-death" testimonies. My father was a Christian before that experience and a Christian afterwards. But it did not turn him into a street preacher! He maintained his quiet faith the rest of his life but never tried to convince anyone else to believe the way he did. I heard him tell his physician cousin once that he died and came back, but the doctor said, "You were not really dead yet." My father believed his cousin. No one has ever really come back from the dead. (I just realized what a loaded phrase "back from the dead" is, in the context of this post. So, I will state that I put Jesus in that same category. To me, it was not even necessary for Jesus to come back to life, except to fulfill some wierd and outdated "atonement" concept. How strange a god would require that? I guess I agree with one of the best "Christians" I know, who said, when discussing her religion, "I believe all of it except Easter.")
hlerwin
Life does exist after you are dead. You memory, your senses, and your ability to talk and reason do not cease to exist.
I knew of four people who died and came back to life. One was an associate at work who was a Jew. Before he died he did not believe in God; he was an atheist. He told me that when he died he said that he was traveling down a dark tunnel. Then all of a sudden he was brought back to life. After the experience he said he knew that there was an afterlife and that there was a God. He didn't know whose God to believe in. He searched all the major religions of the world and settled on Judaism.
The second person I knew was a personal friend of mine. She was a Catholic at the time; later she became a born-again Christian. She got hit by a car and died on the way to the hospital. At the hospital the doctors were able to bring her back to life. She experienced a heavenly place. There were streets of gold, beautiful flowers and etc just like the Christian Bible describes.
The third person was a stranger I met at a McDonalds while traveling from Houston, Tx to Ft. lauderdale, Fl. We were in line waiting to place our order. I felt compelled by God to witness to him the Lord Jesus Christ. He recounted to me how he died and had come back to life. Before he died he said that he was afraid of death. He said that he didn't believe in a life after death. When he died he went down a dark tunnel. He talked with a being of light that said that he could go to heaven if he lived a righteous life. Afterwards he was brought back to life. He said he now is no longer afraid of death, knows that there is a life after death, and believe he will go to Heaven if he lives a righteous life. Of course, this is false. What he encountered was Satan, who transformmed himself into an angel of light, to deceive him into believing that all he needed to do was live righteously to go to heaven. I told him that he needed Jesus to go to heaven. He said, "I don't need your Jesus." I just shook my head and asked God to save him..
The fourth person is a Baptist minister. His name is Don Piper. He gave his testimony in my Church of what he experienced in Heaven when he died. He was killed in a head on collision with an 18 wheeler. He was dead for 90 minutes before he came back to life. He recounts his experiences in a book he wrote entitled "90 Minutes in Heaven-A True Story of Death and Life". You can read something about his book at http://www.amazon.com/90-Minutes-Heaven-...
Dr. Rawlings wrote a book and made a documentary called "To Hell and Back". The documentary gives five testimonies of which 4 of them are from atheist, who died, went to hell and came back to life. All five became born-again. The documentary is well worth the watch. You can view it free at
http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Rawlings/Dr_Rawlings_Near_Death_Experiences.htm
hlerwin, this life is just a short one compared to what God has prepared for us! you can have that too, it must be wonderful in Heaven and in God's presence. No more pain or worries. Just pure joy. Nothing can top that.
hlerwin, I agree keeping track of several conversations at once can get rather confusing, but I did get your response with regards to lina at the clergy ban site, so I'll continue with you there, thanks.
But for people for whom the idea of an afterlife is a real comfort, I'm happy for them.
believer, just as you, I answered about lina's being a Christian and your question "Do you believe any parts of the Bible?" at another CP site. (Where THAT is, your guess is as good as mine. I get lost in this place.)
wbmoore, no, I do not believe in an afterlife. Or maybe I should say I don't KNOW whether there is one or not. But, furthermore, I don't give it much thought. I think the life we have here on earth is so rich (with its ups and downs and joys and tragedies and good times and bad times and in-between times) that its seems grasping and greedy to me for people to expect more.
hlerwin,
I was not sure what your answer would be, which is why I asked. I was wondering if there were parts of the Bible you consider to be true. Reading your posts, I see there are not.
Do you believe in an afterlife?
hlerwin, as I said at a different site lina is not a Christian and she professes to be anything but a Christian. And once again I ask you are there any doctrines of the Christian faith or Bible that you do believe in and if so what are they?
How should I put this? Our children do not "worry" about whether the Bible is true or not. They honor the example of many Christians, though (especially their mother), and live honest, loving lives.
I believe that the spirit of the scripture is true, but I cannot idolize the written word. Humans were religious long before the Bible came into being and will be so when the Bible ceases to be useful. "God, help us to depart from the paths that are no longer helpful." I think the Bible is beginning to be viewed as "not helpful" by many people, many because of the way Christians (some of them, anyway) idolize the book. Jesus on His return would bring a sword to such idolatry.
hlerwin,
You did in that post give a plain answer; is that better for communication?
As I read your other posts, perhaps you can clear up questions comes to mind: why follow scriptures that you do not believe are true? And does your family agree that they are not true, nor authoritative for everyone?
wbmoore, I think, already knew perfectly well how I would view Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23.
Check out my post from 8:12am today. Do I seem afraid to give a straight answer?
Why do some people answer a question with a question? Are they afraid of giving a straight answer?
Why do fundamentalists often seem so obtuse?
wbmoore, what is your "best guess" on what I think about those last two verses?
wb, is this a serious question?
hlerwin,
Ok, you believe the Bible is wrong, and man is NOT condemned if they do not believe God sent Christ. So it is not applicable to you.
What then do you do with the verses
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
wbmoore, in rereading over recent posts, if anyone's need re-posting, it's Lina's. She may not be an "acceptable Christian" for many on this Web site, but Christians need to seriously consider the points lina makes. Here are two.
Linaâ
hlerwin,
Ok, you believe the Bible is wrong, and man is NOT condemned if they do not believe God sent Christ. So it is not applicable to you.
What then do you do with the verses
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
No
hlerwin,
But the passage says that who ever does believe that God gave His Son has eternal life, and who ever does not believe is condemned.
So it is in the Bible. Is what the verse says true?
hlerwin, so you believe that those verses from John only speak to a certain group of people and how people respond to the truths of those verses will not impact their eternal destiny. Then I go back to a question I asked you on another site, what led you to become a Christian as opposed to a Buddhist or Taoist? You mentioned you liked the changes you saw in your wife after she became a Christian, but I'm more curious to know what did God say to or show you that convinced you to become a Christian?
But....rollin4him (a name that sounds like Christianity reduced to a CB handle) had a memorable and helpful remark. He wrote: "All right, put up your cyber dukes you wuss. Your a fake and a bully by coming on to this site and trying to push us around. Repent from your scornful life and become a warrior for the Lord."
Memorable, for all the wrong reasons...
And helpful, as it reminded me to try to steer clear of people like rollin4him....
wbmoore: I think that is a beautiful verse from the Christian Bible. This is the scripture that my family and I follow. But this scripture has no authority over my neighbor, who may be a Jew or a Daoist or an athiest. And your statement, wb, "That's OK. We know the truth" is certainly not as memorable (or helpful) as what John said, as I'm sure you realize.
And I will continue to do what God has asked me to. Warn the church of their courting of harlots (false doctrines). And spread the Good News of God's love. And if that happens to step on anyone's toes, I'll be sure to tell them to take it up with God. He's the boss. Not me.
hlerwin,
What do you make of the following passage?
John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
I appreciate your thoughtful response, wbmoore. I can see, just as you do, that "never the twain shall meet," on this bulletin board, anyway. I can be prideful. And you can be smug. ("Its perfectly OK, because we know the truth.") I guess I will go back to MY corny old saw: "You go to your church, and I'll go to mine."
And the reason for the strange markings for the apostrophe is due to the fact that I am using a Spanish language keyboard with which I am not familiar.
These postings are probably already on the back burner.
However: to igh, both Acts and some passages in Paul´s various Epistles refer to this first disagreement. The disagreement is also the subject of several books by noted scholars who go back to the original Greek in which the New Testament was first written. All the following theological disputes are a matter of historical record as noted in the writings of the early Church fathers.
To rolln4him: Why are you so angry? I do try to write within the block but don´t understand why you consider my postings "lame". Is it because I don´t indulge in vituperation and name calling, not to mention snide sarcasm (re your comment about my being¨"so brilliant.")
Can´t people disagree in a civil manner.
I appreciate the civil reply and explanation of john14-6.
Why can´t the various postings be half that courteous?
hlerwin,
Given what you have posted, and the 'camp' you have placed yourself in, I realize God's word is not very important to your every day life. Since you quote everything BUT the Bible, it is evident that empty philosophy is more important to you than what God says. I realize you do not believe the only God is sufficiently powerful enough or loving enough or caring enough or gracious enough or wise enough to have written what He wanted written through the use of God-led men and then keep its message unchanged for centuries. I realize you are incaapable of understanding that GOD sets the rules for how things work and what people SHOULD do or not do, and not you or even society as a whole. I understand that you do not think the Bible should take precendence over your feelings or thoughts, which is to say you know more than God does (by the way, that is called pride). But many people DO believe ithe Bible is the word of God and DO believe people should base their lives and choices on what God says, and to top it all off the Bible calls people who seek to do what Gods says to do wise.
However, God calls people to name sin as sin. God calls people to rebuke sinners - most especially those who call themselves Christian. As such, we are required to recognize and point out falacious thinking (such as yours) concerning sin. Any 'church' or demonination that embraces what God calls sin needs to be rebuked. Their mistakes need to be studied and avoided by other churches.
Concerning authority, CHRIST gave us authority to name sin as sin. People can accept what God has said or not. They can ignore what God has said, but to their peril. You and the entire world are free to decide true Christians (people who believe the Bible is God's word and Christ died to save us from our sin, and that there is no other way to get to heaven but to believe in Christ as savior) are boring, or lazy, or superstitious, or ignorant, or crazy. Its perfectly OK, because we know the truth. Christians suffer today simply for calling Christ savior (that's crazy isnt it). The persecution will continue to grow. We know this. We expect it. And while we do not want to suffer, we also welcome it as an honor and a signal of what is to come.
It is a shame you can not get the fact that a believer is called to a higher standard than the world. But then you yourself have said you maybe you are not of the 'elect' and perhaps you are right. I pray you are not. I pray you will repent and truly believe, or if you do believe (which is certainly not clear) that you will have the confusion concerning what God taught removed from you.
hlerwin -
Did you just demean my brother WBM you big bully by saying "I beginning to wonder [if you get it]"
All right, put up your cyber dukes you wuss. Your a fake and a bully by coming on to this site and trying to push us around. Repent from your scornful life and become a warrior for the Lord.
Stick with your own church, where you can have a vote that will be counted.
And your opinions (or what YOU think God's opinions are) have no authority over these Christians. Can you get this? I'm beginning to wonder.
What I meant was: You have no authority over the Episcopalians, wbm. Honest people have struggled with difficult questions in the PECUSA. You were not there for the discussions. You don't get to vote.