Presbyterians grieved by the pro-gay actions of the highest governing body of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) plan to converge next month to look for a way forward.
The meeting will provide a forum and analysis for around 200 PC(USA) leaders as they lament votes by the denomination's General Assembly in June that favored homosexuality.
The Assembly's actions "have caused a crisis of conscience within the denomination," said Renee Guth, executive director of the New Wineskins Association of Churches, a network of some 200 conservative Presbyterian churches discontent with the PC(USA).
The Assembly on June 27 approved an "authoritative interpretation" of the church constitution, allowing non-celibate gay and lesbian candidates for ordination to conscientiously object the current standard which requires fidelity in marriage between a man and a woman and chastity in singleness. The governing body also voted to delete the fidelity and chastity requirement – a vote that will go to the denomination's 173 presbyteries for approval – and approved changes to a document of the Reformed Christian faith that would delete "homosexual perversion" from a list of condemned behaviors.
Days after the biennial Assembly meeting, the PC(USA)'s top leaders sent a letter to all of its 11,000 congregations acknowledging the anxiety the Assembly created for some and the "storms" that are to come. The leaders urged congregations to stay together and not "act or react immediately" to the decisions.
But some have already begun acting.
"We have had strong interest from many PC(USA) pastors and elders from across the country for the Atlanta meeting," Guth and co-moderators Gerrit Dawson and Carmen Fowler of the New Wineskins network said in a recent announcement.
New Wineskins will be hosting a meeting for PC(USA) leaders in Atlanta on Aug. 6-7, ahead of their annual convocation.
"We are organizing this event around the needs of those in attendance by placing all options on the table, doing a side by side analysis, and spending more time listening than speaking."
Some of those options include being "in the denomination but not of it," they listed, and various forms of non-geographic presbyteries, among others.
While the conservative network typically holds one gathering each year, addressing both PC(USA) denominational issues and the larger missional vision of the New Wineskins, the group has decided to host two meetings this year with the Atlanta one focusing solely on the denominational issues.
"The Atlanta meeting is for PC(USA) pastors and elders who share our commitment to Essential Tenets, who are grieved by the actions of this past General Assembly, and who are now asking new questions and seeking new answers," the network leaders explained.
Attendees of the Atlanta meeting will also be introduced to the vision of New Wineskins, which consists of congregations that have left the PC(USA) over its liberal direction on theology and those that have remained.
The New Wineskins network, representing about 100,000 Presbyterians, was formed in 2001 after the General Assembly of the PC(USA) would not affirm the singular saving Lordship of Jesus Christ. Conservative Presbyterians began discussing what a church in the 21st century and faithful to Christ would look like as they tried to rediscover their Reformed and Presbyterian roots.
Their fifth convocation is scheduled for November in Baton Rouge, La., where they hope to move away from discussing denominational issues and toward the larger vision of the New Wineskins.
Comments
I used to think the Holy spirit was comfortable with me having premarital sex, getting drunk all the time at college, using a filthy mouth, then one day, after probly the worst summer and school year of my life where my sin and life problems caught up with me, i realized that i was a self rightous carnal christian, and that ever since some time during highschool sin had built a big enough wall between me and God that the holyspirit just kinda quit talking to me for the most part. So with some humble realization and repentence i began to start taking the Bible more for what it really is and although im not near to where id like to be yet, i can say for myself what it really means to be born again. Suck it up and bite the bullet. homosexuality is not moraly right regardless of what society might say. If you wish to disagree fine but it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for you.
There have been more than one case of a Muslim father killing his daughter.
wanting to divorce from arranged marriage: http://www.ajc.com/celebrities/content/metro/clayton/stories/2008/07/10/clayton_daughter_killed.html
not wearing habib: http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/284350
being infatuated with a Hindu boy: http://www.ibnlive.com/news/mumbai-girls-parents-get-life-term-for-killing-her/68686-3.html
honor killings: http://www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm
Similar thing for Hindu fathers:
http://www.nbc5.com/news/14963989/detail.html
http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2005/01-15July05-Print-Edition/011507200571.htm
I believe the Bible is complete. There is no 'to be continued' at the end of it. Now, being a StarTrek fan (who does that surprise?) when I saw the end of the second movie where Spock dies I turned to my wife and said "he'll be in the next movie". How did I know? Well duh...he was dumped on a regenerating planet and just how could you do another movie without him.
My point? The movie was over...complete...done. In the case of the Bible we don't need anything else. We're not doing what we already know! I contains more than enough information to keep us humble for the rest of time as it is.
Does that mean that God doesn't speak today. Of course He does. He hasn't changed. He speaks when He wants to and who He wants to. Still, there were times of 400 years where He didn't say anything.
To me the Bible is the owners manual. The only difference between the Bible and other owners manuals is the Bible doesn't need revision. It stays accurate. Still, methods for situations change. I wouldn't talk to a Charasmainiac (I loved it when one called himself that) as I would share with a Bob Joneser. Still, the Bible is the same and the Gospel is the same.
hlerwin, no the Bible is not the only word we'll get from God, but if the word you get contradicts, violates, or supersedes the Word of God then you have not heard from God.
Interesting questions about the Muslim father, Daniel. It does seem a bit extreme, but I get your point.
As far as majority rule is concerned, in our American system, the courts protect the minority from the "tyranny of the majority." That happened with desegregation, as well as with same-sex marriage in Massachusetts and California.
You beat me by two, but our four children heard what they wanted to hear as they grew up. With the Holy Spirit, you hear what you want to hear, and I hear what I want to hear. I agree with that, too. We just disagree on the substance of what we each hear.
And I don't think believer can accurately assess where what I hear is coming from. One difference in you and believer and me is that I definitely do not think that the scripture - or revelation - is complete. I would hate to think the Bible is all the information we will ever get from God.
hlerwin, but the Holy Spirit will never give us an insight that violates, contradicts or supersedes the Word of God. When that does happen then it is not the Holy Spirit who is giving that insight.
"I guess Mike and I just get different insights from the Holy Spirit."
All too often we hear what we want to hear. If we do that with our earthly parents (after 6 children I can give a witness to that) would it not stand to reason we do that with our heavenly Father? This is why you need to check what you 'hear' against His word.
"We have no authority over these people. And, in the United States, every citizen has equal rights."
Actually, we do. America rules by majority vote. If the majority say it's wrong then that's the game plan.
The following are simply examples of a point and not 'slams' on any and is an exagerated example to clearify the point.
Let's take your arguement further. What makes something a right in this country? What if Muslims were allowed to follow their Islamic law based on their right to Freedom of Religion? Sounds good but if a child became a Christian then the Dad would have the right to kill his son. Would it be murder? After all, he was within his rights under the freedom of religion.
My answer would be yes it would be murder. Does this violate his freedom of religion rights? Yep. Why is that OK? Because it goes against the sensibilities of the majority. We will see with the November election if this holds true for homosexual marriage.
Now as for 'God's revelation'... God is consistant. You are either under law or grace. The law condemns homosexuality and the homosexual. Grace again condemns homosexuality but provides a way of salvation for the homosexual. It is only through the Grace of God that any of us can repent of any sin.
That's a thoughtful - and loving - rsponse at 5:25pm yesterday, believer. I guess Mike and I just get different insights from the Holy Spirit. I have no other way to explain it. Mike has certainly "prayed through" his situation. I think he has arrived at a place that God will bless. Just my quick, morning idea about it....
The question is not whether they are nice people; the question is do they love God. God said if we love him, we will obey him or we are liars.
Christ said to avoid sexual immorality - this includes all illicit sex as defined in Lev 18.
Matthew 15:18-20
18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual IMMORALITY, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man 'UNCLEAN'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "
The Apostles said to avoid sexual immorality.
Acts 15:29
You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual IMMORALITY. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
More, Paul said to have nothing to do with people who claim to be Christian and are sexually immoral.
1 Corinthians 5:9-11
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that YOU MUST NOT ASSOCIATE WITH ANYONE WHO CALLS HIMSELF A BROTHER BUT IS SEXUALLY IMMORAL or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
John said if we claim to have fellowship with God, and live a life of sin, we lie and do not live by the truth.
1 Jn 1:5-7
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 IF WE CLAIM TO HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM YET WALK IN DARKNESS, WE LIE AND DO NOT LIVE BY THE TRUTH. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
Christ said to not sin.
JOHN 8:11 "... Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
We must OBEY Christ, OR WE DO NOT KNOW HIM.
1 Jn 2:3-6
3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 THE MAN WHO SAYS, "I KNOW HIM," BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 WHOEVER CLAIMS TO LIVE IN HIM MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.
The person who chooses to live a homosexual lifestyle is going against what Christ said, what the apostles as a group said, and what Paul said.
Paul said believers are to have no fellowship with people who claim to be Christians and yet engage in immorality, because God has no fellowship with the immoral.
hlerwin, I do not question their loving relationships, nor do I have negative feelings towards a person because they are a homosexual. The issue is the sexual practices of the homosexual lifestyle. That is what I believe God's Word clearly condemns. I have friends who are both atheists and agnostics, they too are good people, but the Bible clearly condemns there belief system with regards to God. My concern is that what they are thinking, doing, and/or saying violates God's Word and could cause them some very serious consequences which neither God nor I would want them to experience. And just because they are good and decent people does not negate the fact that these things are wrong in the sight of God. But the same holds true for anyone to include myself, when we sin it displeases God, hurts our relationship with Him and others, and if we are a Christian has a negative impact on the cause of Christ. But the good news is that God stands ready and willing to forgive us for our sins and cleanse us of the unrighteousness associated with that sin if we will acknowledge our sin as sin, repent of that sin and turn to God and receive His forgiveness and allow Him to restore us to a right relationship with Him.
Freudian slip: That "out constitution" (which sounds like some Gay Pride chant) should read "our constitution." Funny.....
Daniel and believer, I think feetxxxl is right. I, too, though heterosexual, have prayed for the Holy Spirit to reveal truths to me. Now, I believe that the negative feelings I held years ago about homosexuals came simply from my own cultural biases. In my mind, I can affirm loving relationships these people have. This does NOT make me indisputably RIGHT!
I could line up two panels of good, honest Christian people. Each panel could be 25 or 30 (or 100) people. One panel could made up of members from, for instance, the United Church of Christ, and one panel from some healthy, loving fundamentalist church. (And, my liberal friends, believe it or not, such churches DO exist!). Practically the entire panel from the first group of Christians would say God recognizes same-sex love. Practically all of the second panel would say, no, He doesn't. Neither panel could "prove" its point (using scripture or lawyer-like arguments or emotional appeals). This is just where we are today. I don't say you funamentalists are wrong, and you wouldn't care if I did. You can't tell me I'm wrong, and I wouldn't care if you did. More to the point, the thousands of couples in more and more same-sex marriages every day do not care what you and I say. We have no authority over these people. And, in the United States, every citizen has equal rights. These people are exercising their legal civil rights when they marry. If your church refuses to marry them, that's fine. You and I have no authority over the churches these people attend. (That's in out constitution, too.)
I might take it one step further. The Bible is the Word of God and what it says is the truth of God. However, all of the books ever printed or ever will be printed could contain all the truth God knows.
"why is it impossible for conservative believers to admit that anything written requires interpretation"
Simple...as a parent my instructions to my children are not subject to interpretation. 'Clean your room' is clear enough! God says He is our Father. The only time my children tried to interpret my instructions is when they want to get out of something....
We have enough trouble with what limited truth God gave us in the Bible. It's enough until we get to heaven.
hlerwin, I would use the word ultimate and not final. Because God's Word is the foundation for all truth. But that is not to say that God's Word contains all truths, but it is the standard for all truth.