A team of Muslim scholars arrived in Rome Monday ahead of a landmark meeting with top Catholic officials.
The Muslim scholars, who will meet Pope Benedict XVI and Vatican officials for a series of talks starting Tuesday, hope the Nov. 4-6 meeting will help defuse ongoing tensions between Islam and Christianity.
"It is clear that the time has come to open debate on the common theological underpinnings and the shared foundations of the two religions," wrote Professor Tariq Ramadan, president of the European Muslim Network (EMN), in a commentary appearing in the U.K.-based Guardian. Ramadan is part of the delegation of Muslim scholars taking part in the first round of interfaith talks with the Vatican.
“Our task is not to create a new religious alliance against the ‘secularized’ and ‘immoral’ world order, but to make a constructive contribution to the debate, to prevent the logic of economics and war from destroying what remains of our common humanity,” the Brussels-based professor continued.
“Our task will be to assume our respective and shared responsibilities, and to commit ourselves to working for a more just world, in full respect of beliefs and liberties.”
It has been over two years since Catholic-Muslim relations notably soured following Pope Benedict XVI’s speech in Regensburg, Germany, in which he quoted a 14th century Byzantine emperor's criticism of Islam, linking it to violence.
One year earlier, violent protest broke out in Muslim countries after a Danish newspaper printed a series of cartoons of Islam’s most revered prophet, Mohammad. Over 50 people died in the ensuing deadly clashes, which some say could have been averted had Christians and Muslims jointly denounced the violence.
"We should develop a crisis reaction mechanism so if there is another cartoon crisis, we could get together and make a joint statement," said Ibrahim Kalin, an Islamic scholar from Turkey who is spokesman for the group attending this week’s closed-doors talks, according to Reuters.
Led by Mustafa Ceric, the Grand Mufti of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the 24 Muslim scholars attending the Nov. 4-6 gathering will represent the Common Word Group, a broad coalition of Muslim leaders and scholars who are pursuing dialogue between the world's two largest religions.
Since the group issued The Common Word Manifesto last October, a total 275 prominent Muslims have signed the document urging Christian churches to reach mutual understanding to safeguard global security, based on shared principles of loving God and their neighbors.
Common Word delegates have also met this year with a number of Protestant leaders, proposing regular dialogue sessions, student exchanges, suggested reading lists and other ideas to help Christians and Muslims learn more about each other.
At the most recent Muslim-Christian conference, hosted by the Archbishop of Canterbury, 17 prominent Muslims met with 19 Christian leaders and denounced the persecution of Iraqi Christians, saying that there was no justification in Islam for the attacks.
During their Oct. 12-15 meeting, participants addressed issues such as the global economic crisis, interfaith education, different understandings of scriptures, shared moral values, respect for foundational figures in the respective faiths, religious freedom, and the persecution of minorities in Iraq.
Pope Benedict, who will address the Rome gathering, is expected to deplore prejudice against Muslim minorities and immigrants in Europe while also calling on Muslims to help defend Christian minorities persecuted or endangered in the Middle East, including Iraq.
At the talks, Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, head of the Vatican's top interfaith body, the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, will lead the Catholic delegation comprised of 24 Vatican officials and Catholic experts on Islam, including Miguel Angel Aysuso Guixot, president of Italy's top Islamic studies institute, the Pontifical Institute for Arabic and Islamic Studies (PISAI).
The team of delegates will meet on the theme of "Love of God and love of neighbor" and will address theological-spiritual themes on the first day. On the second day, they will turn to "Human dignity," exploring issues related to human rights, religious freedom, and religious respect, possibly alluding to the freedom to convert and change religions. And on Thursday, the delegates will have an audience with Pope Benedict before holding a public discussion session that afternoon.
The gathering concludes Thursday.
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From a blessed Indonesian followers of Jesus Christ
It would be hard to swallow the words of these Muslims condemning past terrorist acts of the Islamic jihadist because their violent action is based on the Quran and their full of hatred -Hadith.
Therefore unless they changed the wording in the Quran and Hadith then all what Mustafa Ceric and Tariq Ramadan say are lies and more lies.
Tallguy,
I look forward to a praise report and my prayers will be with her.
Peace
Thank you OnLine, I sincerly appreciate your prayer support. I'll post a praise report the day gives her life to Christ...AMEN!
(Would you fast a meal for that?)
I missed this earlier; yes, I am willing to fast for her.
Catholic Catechism, par. 1498
Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls [of others] in Purgatory.
Catholic Catechism, par. 1477
This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body. [Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.]
Catholic Catechism, par. 1479
Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.
Catholic Catechism, par. 2027
No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
Tallguy,
I will definitely keep your sister in prayer; I too have loved ones who need to repent and accept Christ.
(No Online, the Catechism clearly states that Salvation is a free gift given to us by God through Faith in His Son Jesus Christ. There is nothing more that can be added. I cannot add to what Jesus has done! It clearly states that there is nothing that I can do to earn my salvation. I just need to trust and believe)
I agree with you that Salvation is a free gift given to us by God through Faith in His Son Jesus Christ, there is nothing more that can be added, we cannot add to what Jesus has done, there is nothing that we can do to earn our salvation and that we need to trust and believe. If this is what you truly believe in your heart; I say amen, however, the Catechism states that we can merit salvation, that the fruit of sacramentalism saves, indulgences remits sin, and that good works/treasury of the saints can save others. This is not what Scripture teaches.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 4:2-5 If, in fact, Abraham was justified [saved] by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. What does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work [trying to earn salvation] but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
How do your reconcile your personal testimony above with the following statements?
Catholic Catechism, par. 1129
The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature [Cf. 2 Peter 1:4.] by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.
Actually, 2Peter 1:4 reads: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious PROMISES: that by THESE YE might be partakers of the DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
No Online, the Catechism clearly states that Salvation is a free gift given to us by God through Faith in His Son Jesus Christ. There is nothing more that can be added. I cannot add to what Jesus has done! It clearly states that there is nothing that I can do to earn my salvation. I just need to trust and believe.
This matter of merit; you need to re-read. The Catechism also clearly states that I cannot do anything to earn salvation for anyone else. I cannot stand on my head or wash windows to gain salvation for anybody. Yet through my faithful prayers I can seek God's favor in bringing someone to Christ. Hey Online, would you join me in prayer for my sister living in Calgary? Right now she's lost and searching. I faithfully pray that she will soon give her life over to the one who loves her; our Lord Jesus Christ and accept Him as her Savior. Would you fast a meal for that?
And, I did look through scripture before I ever read through my Catechism. Matter of fact, I haven't even read through my Catechism, I just refer to it from time to time when I need guidance or wisdom in certain areas. That is how is is meant to be used. This is no different then you going to your pastor for guidance. My pastor(s) have the courage to put their guidance in writing as a guide for their faithful flock to follow. The Catechism does Not superceede the Bible, it only compliments and helps interpret it.
Tallguy,
It would best in your best interest to study the catechism in light of what the Scriptures say not the other way around. I did not pronounce those anathemas, it was your religion; can you show me where in their encyclical pronouncements where these have been rescinded or amended?
Anything which contradicts Scripture is not binding upon Christians, for example, the catechism states that we can merit salvation and for those around us; this is not merely praying for someone. It speaks of salvation: deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption. No matter how much we pray, we do not possess the power to deliver and redeem someone from sin. The Scriptures state that it is God alone who delivers and we also do not merit salvation by works.
Online, I don't understand your post from Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:40 pm. Chris had a firm and truthful answer, you just don't want to hear it.
Online, I don't understand your post from Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:44 am
You seem to be grasping at straws to try and pick the Catechism apart. Yet there was nothing in there thay you could possibly pick apart - Nothing! So give it up already. You can't do better then the wisdom of the holy and scholorly people who assembled it. They are not out to trick or decieve us, they are out to guide us perfectly.
msn,
Good to hear from you again, so, these statements are not referring to faith, doctrine and morals; hmmm . . . well, that is your spin?
Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.
Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.
(Yes, councils are infallible . . .)
I quote these statements not because I believe them but they are posted here to demonstrate what your faith truly teaches. Also, I do not need to use conjecture/rhetoric when history itself bears witness to what your faith teaches. Why is it that every time information is posted that refutes your religious claims, you introduce a red herring; you know, something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand and charge those who post here as being uncharitable? We are not talking about not loving one another; we are discussing truth. Where do we find it, who possess it and who is declaring it.
Instead of taking jabs and disappearing without responding to my previous posts, why not first address them and proceed from there?
Online,
First of all, you've never been "behind the scenes". So, you offer conjecture of how the Catholic hierarchy thinks or doesn't think about Protestants. There is no Protestant today that had any part of the Reformation. All the Reformers and divisionists are dead. I've been invited to many meetings at the Vatican and here in the US, especially because I was a former Reformed Pastor, and I can tell you that there is a great deal of love for one another and at no time at any of the ecumenical dialogues we've had with our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ has it ever been otherwise. We Catholics do not see Protestantism as cursed at all and it is high time that people relieve themselves from centuries old Rhetoric.
I find many ecumenical efforts very rewarding. I've had some evangelicals help my parish with marketing efforts to bring back backslidden Catholics to church. I've had Southern Baptist share with me the success of Home Bible Studies for couples. I've had Pentecostals share their Spirit of passion for the Word of God. In return, I've shared with them the value of the Word of God in the Liturgy. I've shared with them the value of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I've shared with them the many benefits of Confession and most of all we've shared together our mutual love of Christ and His Word.
Online,
Yes, councils are infallible but only speaking on faith and morals. An Anathema is a disciplinary action, which does not fall under faith and morals and it may be revoked or changed. The infallibility of the Pope at the council is when the Church officially states a doctrine on faith and morals.
An Anathema is not doctrine. It is not a dogma. It has nothing to do with faith and moral declarations. It is a Disciplinary action that comes from people believing and acting outside of communion with the Church. The Church has the power to discipline her people, as any church does.
tallguy,
Thanks for sharing your testimony . . .
(As far as what the Church said at Trent 500 years ago, I'm no expert. However, that is history and what really matters is what the Church is saying now)
According to the (Catechism of the Catholic Church), the Catholic doctrine of infallibility applies not only to the Pope, but also to Church Councils (including the Council of Trent).
As a result, the official statements of the Council of Trent are considered to be infallible. This means that they cannot be changed. Therefore, the anathemas of the Council of Trent cannot be revoked.
The Catholic Church may find it expedient not to call peopleâ
tallguy,
I have a copy of the Catechism and I did read Article 2 on Grace and Justification. You asked, (Is there anything in there that you can disagree with?)
Yes; according to Scripture we are made right with God by His free and merciful grace, not on the basis of what we do in a state of grace, but upon the basis of what Christ has done. We are justified not only by the death of Christ but also by the life of Christ. As our substitute he lived the perfect life and we are constituted as righteous by his obedience which is imputed to us by faith. So, the question of inherent versus imputed righteousness goes to the heart of the debate.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:3-5).
Justification is based solely and completely upon the merits of Jesus Christ. Justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, sanctification is a process by which the Holy Spirit begins to transform us into the image of Christ. We do not contribute to our justification through our efforts.
tallguy, as an adult I've found the less non-catholic an area the better the relationship between catholics and other denominations, I also don't see the stringency to catholic doctrine that I experienced growing up as a catholic.
It might have something to do with the parish. There are certainly some that ar quite liberal and others that are quite conservative. The same might be true for teaching faith alone in Christ with deeds that exemplify that faith vs faith and deeds.
So I wonder if it has anything to do with Canada vs. USA, thought it shouldn't because Catholic is Catholic.
For me it was somewhat different I guess. I was indeed told that I was to knock at the door and it would be opened to me, etc. That I could take anything to God in prayer, yet I must believe with faith greater than a mustard seed that He would answer in the way that He knew would be best for me. I remember taking catechism classes as a teenager and my dad coming with us (parents were welcome and encouraged) and my dad helped explain things a bit more. My mom was always a good cook and would occasionally invite the priest over for dinner. I'd ask him lots of questions and he was always able to give me answers, though as a teenager I didn't always like or want the answers he was giving me because at that time I was more interested in what the world had to tell me. This priest was pretty cool, he used to come out and play baseball with the recreation team in our small Manitoba town too. Catholic or Protestant, it didn't matter, he was well liked and respected by people in our town. So, I've got pretty good memories of growing up in the Catholic Church. For example, when I rolled my Camero in the early hours one fall morning (when I was about 20 and very much into the partying lifestyle), we almost died. I was stable, but my friend was on the brink of death and the doctors didn't expect him to live. I'll never forget the way my mom rallied her friends together - prayer warriors, Catholic and Protestant, every day for the next several days praying rosaries, and praying from the heart for my buddies' recovery. By the grace of God, my friend recovered in only a few short days and in such a miraculous way that the doctors in that large Winnipeg hospital commented on how they'd never witnessed anything quite like it before. Praise God!
This is the relationship with Jesus I grew up with, yet all through the Catholic Church. You'll never know how insulted I felt the first time I heard an evengelical try tell me that I wasn't Christian.
tallguy, I knew facts, that's why when I was witnessed to for the first time in my life on May 31st, 1971 I new factually I was a sinner and that Jesus died on the cross, but I had never heard before that night that God wanted to have a personal relationship with me through the person and finished work of His Son, Jesus Christ alone. It was the 1st time I was shown Ephesians 2:8-9 and most importantly Revelation 3:20. How could the catholics who told me I needed to do good works to get into heaven think I already had faith in Christ when they never taught me how to have faith in Him?
I don't know what to say except that maybe it was a bit like that for me; yet I don't really recall being worried about it. I just knew and trusted as a kid that Jesus was crucified, died, and came back to life again on the 3rd day as He said He would. He was assumed into Heaven and would prepare a place for us as He said He would. He would be with us through this life and I could pray to him at anytime anywhere. This is faith in Jesus. And I knew as a kid that I believed this, thus faith in Jesus (faith) and I believed then and still believe now that after my death I'll be brought into heaven to that place that He said he has prepared for me. That's faith.
So believer, I'm guessing you pretty much knew the same thing as a kid too. That by believing in Jesus and His message you would gain entry into Heaven simply because He said so. He told you that you were more important than even the sparrows, and that every hair on your head was numbered. You (and I) also knew that we had friends and family out there who had never heard this message, or who laughed at it and rejected it, and you knew that by their actions they would not likely make it into heaven. They rejected Jesus; therefore He would have no choice but to reject them also. I felt sad for them.
So, maybe the priests, nuns, teachers, and your parents already knew that you had your faith in Christ, and that you already knew without doubt that you would gain entry into heaven because you believed in Jesus and that He loved you. So, it makes me wonder, why evangelicals put so much emphasis on "Do you have Faith"? This makes me think that the Catholics already trusted that you did.
It makes sense that the good works part just brought us closer to Jesus, to be better people, to be more like Him, to be kind to our fellow human beings. To live without sin as much as possible, to be sanctified. Would you rather have had the nuns telling you that it didn't really matter? Therefore, if you choose to arrogantly live a life of sin (i.e. bad works) cheating, lying, stealing from others, sleeping with your girlfriend or living with her, totally disregarding Jesus' message, it wouldn't matter? I think these people were simply trying to teach us that there is a better way to live, a more pure way, a more Holy way, a more Christ-like way.
I never once had a priest, nun, or school teacher tell me that if I washed the windows or swept the floor at Church I'd gain entry into heaven. If I gave money I'd make it into Heaven. Rather, this kind of nonsense was discouraged.
Did you get a chance to listen to that podcast from Fr John Ricardo yet? You'll see the difference in the way priests are preaching these days...
tallguy, it wasn't just one or two people who taught me this, I was constantly taught this from nuns, priests, teachers, and even some of my relatives while I was both in grammar school and high school(seminary).
Online, thanks for getting me to look a bit deeper on this subject in my Catechism! Praise God, it's very encouraging to see you reading the Catechism too!
RE: Part Three, Section One, Chapter Three
ARTICLE 2
GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION
I think I understand your question, but before we discuss the paragraph you selected to ask about, paragraph III on Merit, tell me if you read paragraph I on Justification, and paragraph II on Grace? If so, as a Christian, is there anything in there that you can disagree with?
So, in paragraph III, all they are saying by the word Merit is that it is the favor God gives us through prayer. And is this any different then the way you speak at your church? Have you ever encouraged someone at your church to pray, that God will answer their prayers. Do you know anyone who sought the favor of God through prayer and fasting? Have you ever tried to win one of your family members to Christ through prayer and fasting? Etc. Do you suppose your prayers may have brought someone somewhere to salvation? If not, keep praying my friend. God will answer.
As far as what the Church said at Trent 500 years ago, I'm no expert. However, that is history and what really matters is what the Church is saying now. And I think you just read what the Church is officially saying now through what you just read in the catechism.
Good night....
Amen Believer, praise Jesus we agree, salvation is a free gift from God!
But as far as what someone might have told you when you were a kid... you need to get over it already. As Christian Men, we don't walk in circles looking for our inner child, we walk in a straight line following Christ! Was it a priest or a nun or your school teacher that told you this about salvation? Was it your parents? Maybe they didn't know what they were talking about regarding this topic, or maybe at that age you misunderstood what they were saying, who knows. Maybe they were trying to teach you about santification not justification? At any rate, that was years ago, this is now. The Church has come a long way since then. For example, did you try listening to that podcast I mentioned? If so, you'll get a flavor of how things have changed. At least give it a listen, he's got a great message, and it never hurts to hear another good message. Just trust me on this one, that you won't be disppointed.
In Christ my friend...<><...
Tallguy, but as a young catholic I was indeed taught that good works were required so I could be able to go to heaven when I died.
tallguy, if you've read any of my posts you would know I am adamantly opposed to cheap grace salvation which says all you have to do is say a little prayer, walk the aisle of a church, be baptized, become a member of a church and now your free to live your life anyway you want. That is not a genuine conversion experience. Based on your last post I think we totally agree that if a person is genuinely saved works will result that will affirm their conversion was real and genuine. But your earlier post seemed to say that works were a required part of one's salvation experience as opposed to a result of one's salvation experience.
A couple of thoughts here:
First, Tallguy says, (I and my fellow Catholics are saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. It's a free gift. There is nothing I can do to earn my salvation. Clear enough?)
On the surface this statement sounds biblically orthodox, however, when one travels beyond the surface, what do they find?
(If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema. Sixth Session CANON XII)(Trent)
And . . .
Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, WE CAN THEN MERIT FOR OURSELVES AND FOR OTHERS the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the ATTAINMENT of eternal life. (Catechism of the Catholic Church; p. 487).
It is obvious that your religion condemns those who have placed their faith in Christs atoning sacrifice alone. It also teaches that one can merit/attain eternal life for themselves as well as for others; how do you merit eternal life for someone else? If one merits salvation, how can it be a gift?
Second, how do you reconcile that fact that your religion embraces another faith that openly denies the deity of Christ? This is a betrayal of the gospel and the person of Jesus Christ!
The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than Godâ
Take heed wilderness1. Ambrose St. John does not speak for the Holy Catholic Church. Anyone can publish what ever he wants. This is NOT Church teaching. Please discard and quit wasting your time in this way (where do you dig this garbage up?). Instead use your time more constructively by worshipping and praising God as He asks you to.
Go preach the Good News to a witch or a buddist this evening, feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, as this is another way you can use your time more effectively.
"The Raccolta Or Collection of Indulgenced Prayer With Good Works" By Ambrose St. John:
323. Veneration of St Peter's Statue.
i. 50 Days, to any one who shall, with contrite heart and devotion, kiss the foot of the bronze statue of this Apostle in St Peter's at Rome.
ii. 50 Days, once a day, for kissing the foot of a copy of the said statue, blessed by the Sovereign Pontiff; available for all the members of the family dwelling in the house where the statue is kept.
Pius IX, Br. May 15,1857; February 4, 1877; Leo XIII, Bfs. April 27, 1880. [end excerpt]
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ" (Col 2:8).
you know, it's funny the way the Holy Spirit works. I'm listening to a podcast on this very topic right now. If you really want to hear what we are being taught have a listen to what Fr. John Ricardo has to say about it:
http://cdn1.libsyn.com/stanastasia/RCIA_for_Catholics-The_Holy_Spirit.m4a?nvb=20081104203925&nva=20081105203925&t=001a8c89328eace767d06
If this doesn't work, then just google OLGC Plymouth Michigan, Fr. John's Pages, Fr. John's Podcasts, RCIA for Catholics, Session 4 - The Holy Spirit.
at least give this a listen before replying back to me....
so believer, do you for once think that if I simply "believe unto Jesus" and then live as a tyrant I'll make it to heaven? Is that what you believe? Let's say someone like Stalin or Hitler walked down to your little church on the corner one Sunday morning and confessed Jesus as his "personal lord & savior" and then went back to killing Ukranians & Jews would they still make it into heaven? Is it once saved always saved?
My opinion no. As you pointed out, we are created for God's good works, not just salvation. These works being love and kindness toward our fellow brothers and sisters on earth. Feed the hungry, cloth the naked, give drink to the thirsty. Allow the the grace of God to work within you to become a better man, a more caring man, a more generous man, a more gentle man. Isin't this what it's all about? Or is it just you and Jesus?
tallguy, so then what did you mean when you said, "There is no such thing as saved by faith alone!... but it's faith AND works."?
tallguy, Ephesians 2:8-10, "For by grace you been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Believer, I just told you the official Church statement / teaching on Salvation. We are saved by faith in Jesus. There is nothing I can do to earn my salvation.
Yet show me where in the bible is says that we are saved by faith alone?
Tallguy, here's what you posted, "There is no such thing as saved by faith alone! Yes, we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but it's faith AND works." Please tell me how I was incorrect in saying you believe in works salvation, and please note I didn't say works ALONE? And as I said in the other post that is exactly what I was taught while in the catholic church.
Despite Islams rejection of the trinity, the deity of Christ and in spite of their unbelief, Muslims are still salvifically related to the People of God and may go to Heaven; that is according to Romes teaching. This shows how serious Roman Catholicisms departure from true biblical Christianity has become.
Hey Believer, I did respond to you that day. Anyway, I'll say it again so that you are clear on the official teachings of the Holy Catholic Church. Just so you know, I and my fellow Catholics are saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. It's a free gift. There is nothing I can do to earn my salvation. Clear enough?
Read all about it at Google: veritatis splendor
Oh fellow Canadian Christian, never mind some of the rumours and myths you hear about. When you say countless thousands were slaughtered, it tells me right away that you really don't know your history.
True, there were some dark periods in the history of the Holy Catholic Church. Let it go already, get over it! Quit whining; come pray with us in front of an abortion clinic instead. Let's look at the overall picture:
Our family is made up of every race. We are young and old, rich and poor, of every possible economic and sociological background, sinners and saints. Our family spans the centuries and spans the globe. With God's grace we started hospitals to care for the sick. We established orphanages and help the poor. We are the largest charitable organization on the planet. We educate more children than any other scholarly institution. We developed the scientific methods and laws of evidence. We founded the collage system. We actively defend the dignity of all human life, we uphold marriage and family. Cities are named after our respected saints who navigated a sacred path ahead of us. Guided by the Holy Spirit we compiled the bible. We are transformed by Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition which has guided us as Christ promised for 2000 years now. For centuries we have prayed for you and for our world, every hour of every day. These prayers still go on daily. Jesus Himself laid down the foundation for our faith, you didn't. What's your church done for the betterment and salvation of the entire world? Still staring at a video screen singing "this is the air I breath"?
http://www.catholicscomehome.org/epic/epic120.phtml
tallguy, I responded back to you about the faith and works issue and had not heard back from you, so i wondered if you had seen it, thanks believer
If you catholics are done puffing yourself's up and taken credit for GOD'S work(as HE is in control of everything)!The catholic church you're so proud of slaughtered countless thousands supposedly in the name of CHRIST-when all it was was an attempt to hold power over the ignorant peasants of europe and continue to sell them their worthless "indulgences" for salvation. I suggest you pro-catholics do a thorough study of actual history before you go on being cheerleaders for the corrupt man-made institution of the catholic church.I pray the veil will be lifted from your eyes and THE HOLY SPIRIT will lead you to the truth of GOD'S HOLY WORD-come out from the arrogant,deceived,corrupt papacy before HIS holy return.I appologize for my harshness but I rebuke you in love,Praise to our LORD & MASTER JESUS CHRIST
Amen Chris! Yes, if it wern't for Jesus's Holy Catholic Church defending Christianity, this very moment we'd all be on a prayer rug facing eastward praying to Allah and praising Mohammad and doing so 5 times a day.
Through the Holy Catholic Church we already have an incredibly strong voice, but just imagine how much stronger it would be if we were all united as Christians. If the 34,000 other denominations swallowed their pride and came home to Rome, all the more credible we would be in the world's eyes.
I think this dialogue can be helpful, but the dialogue will only make Muslims realize the inferiority of their religion and the fact Mohammed was a FALSE prophet.
High level talks are always held in Rome with the Catholic Church since there is no other body who universally represents Christianity as Catholics do. The Pope, whether you like it or not, speaks for Christianity.
If you remember your history it was the Catholics who defeated the Muslims at the battle of LePanto. This great battle was at the time of the Reformation. If the Catholics, whose warriors were greatly outnumbered by the Muslims, had lost then all of Europe would have been ransacked. It was the Catholic Church who fought to keep Christianity alive and well in Europe, while all the new Protestant sects fought each other. Some Protestants even sided with the Muslims during this battle.
The Catholic Church is the only protector for all of Christianity against Islam, because Christ is with His Church. The only church founded by Him, who received His promise of protection. Protestants cannot defend themselves and are so fragmented and divided that only Catholic Christianity can speak for everyone.
Islam can never be at peace with " True " christanity.
The politics of religion...how interesting.
What they will decide goes for everybody...
the new neighborly approach...soon to come your way...