Interview: Rick Warren Back from 7-Week PEACE Journey
Purpose Driven Pastor Rick Warren recently returned from a 48-day trip around the world, launching P.E.A.C.E. Plans and training tens of thousands of church leaders in nations where Warren’s name and best-selling book, The Purpose Driven Life, are far from foreign. Warren was also one of a still small number of faith leaders, as many Christian leaders had indicated, who spoke at the world’s largest AIDS conference in Toronto which concluded late last week. After a good 28 hours of rest upon returning home to Saddleback, Calif., Warren spoke with The Christian Post about his global journey and the ever-present AIDS pandemic.
CP: Can you first give a reflection on the 14-nation tour that you recently concluded? Any new revelations or eye-openers?
Warren: I came away from the 48-day trip in 14 nations with a couple of attitudes. One is an attitude of gratitude of what God is doing in the world. It’s very exciting to see. I really believe that the future of Christianity is Africa, Asia, and Latin America. It’s not North America and it’s not Europe. And I think that’s very obvious. We saw the church growing in a number of different places. It’s very fulfilling to see the Purpose Driven paradigm, the Purpose Driven strategy being used in all kinds of situations – rural, urban, suburban, poor and wealthy places; everything from peasants to presidents.
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There were a number of really neat stories. One of them was when I was flying in from Hong Kong to Manila and the flight attendant gave me a copy of the Manila paper. On the front cover was an article about this communist leader who had read The Purpose Driven Life and accepted Christ and was now trying to serve the Lord.
Also in the Philippines we hear about how the police force is using The Purpose Driven Life to train all their police cadets. Over 10,000 police cadets had gone over 40 Days of Purpose and also if you get involved in some kind of scandal or corruption, they send you for retraining through the Purpose Driven Life.
I never get tired of the stories. We have now trained over 400,000 church leaders in 163 countries and we were doing that long before we started the P.E.A.C.E. Plan. I’ve been training pastors for now 26 years. I’ve just heard so many stories that have been written to me – everything from little tiny house churches to the largest churches in the world.
CP: Switching gears, I know there's been a lot of buzz about your North Korea trip. I just wanted to touch on that. What, if anything, have you learned from your meetings with South Korean clergy about North Korea? And how do they feel about your speaking there?
Warren: I have been encouraged by the church in South Korea to take any opportunity I can to speak in North Korea. There was an invitation for me to come to North Korea next year and speak at the 100th anniversary of the Pyongyang revival. The committee invited me to come and be a part of that. I haven’t heard anything lately on it but I go not for political reasons; I go to share the good news. I go wherever I’m invited and if I get invited there and they don’t limit what I say, I’m happy to go. I would look forward to that honor and opportunity.
CP: Were there significantly contrasting views among the clergy in South Korea?
Warren: There may have been, but I didn’t hear any. They were all just very happy that the invitation had been opened and offered. I believe it would be the first opportunity for public preaching of the good news in a long time.
CP: Switching gears again, the International AIDS Conference shifted the focus from treatment to prevention. And although the ABC model is what most Christians point to, mainly the first half of the model, U.N. leaders and activists say you can't avoid sex and drugs. But it seems nowadays that even churches are beginning to understand and accept that reality. Would you agree? And are you a strong advocate of the ABC policy?
Warren: I think ABC is good. I think that there is more than ABC. A lot of people who believe in ABC believe that’s good but that there are other things too. For instance, a woman could have abstained from sex until marriage. She could be faithful to her husband, but if her husband has AIDS and doesn’t tell her, she’s still going to get it. So ABC doesn’t help her because all three of those are in the control of her husband in many ways.
When I was at the conference I spoke about an alternative - the two acrostics “slow” and “stop.” Instead of debating ABC, I think the question to ask is “what is the purpose of prevention?” Tell me what the purpose of prevention is and I’ll tell you which strategy you should use. Is your purpose to curb or reduce the pandemic? Or is it to cure it, get rid of it? You have to decide whether your goal is alleviation or whether it’s eradication. I came up with two acrostics – “slow” that will slow down the pandemic and “stop” that will stop the pandemic. And a lot of people don’t want to stop the pandemic because they’re not willing to make the behavioral changes. What they want is to slow it down as long as “I don’t have to change my behavior.” And many people at the conference didn’t think that behavior should change or we should even ask people to change behavior. But that’s the role of the church. We have the moral authority to say that behavior change is possible. And you can’t talk about AIDS without talking about behavior because it’s a primarily behavior-based disease. You don’t get it just out of the air.
On “slow,” the four things that will reduce the number of people who have AIDS. First is “supply condoms.” And there are some people who think all we need to give condoms to everybody in the whole world and it will solve it. No, it won’t solve it. It will slow it down, but it won’t stop the pandemic. The “L” in “slow” stands for “limit the number of partners.” Limiting the number of partners will definitely reduce the risk of people getting AIDS. “O” is to “offer needle exchanges.” If you gave addicts clean needles, they’re less likely to get an AIDS infection. The “W” in “slow” stands for “wait for sex.” What I mean by that is what a lot of people talk about is delay your first sexual experience. They tell people to put it off as long as possible because they don’t believe it’s possible for people to live without sex. They’re not saying wait until marriage, they’re just saying to wait a while.
Those four things will slow the pandemic, no doubt about it. They’re very popular and at the conference those four were talked about over and over because they don’t require behavioral change. They’re not painful. They don’t allow you to need much discipline. They’re just easy to do. So they’re popular and they’re easy.
The things that will stop the pandemic are much more difficult and that’s why they’re unpopular. “S” in “stop” stands for “save sex for marriage.” Now nobody can doubt that if everybody did that, AIDS would die in one generation. It would be over in one single generation if people only had sex in marriage. It’s just that people don’t want to do it. “T” – this is a real big one – stands for “train men to treat women with respect.” We’re not ever going to solve this pandemic until we do that because AIDS is now primarily a female disease driven by male behavior. What I mean by that is more women than men have AIDS now in the world – about 60 percent. And this has been a big turning point. But it’s being driven by men who are unfaithful or passing it on to women. So this is a cultural issue. The only place women are really treated well is when people really take Jesus seriously. And there are even people who claim to be Christians who don’t treat women well. And around the world, this is a spiritual problem. Only the Church can teach men how to treat women with respect. The government will never be able to transform a man. Legislation can’t. Only Jesus can transform a man’s heart. So there are people out there that say all we need to do is educate the men. Well, that won’t work. I know a lot of educated men who cheat on their wives or who treat women like dirt.
“O” is to “offer nutrition and medications through churches.” There aren’t enough clinics in the world to take care of all of the people who have AIDS. And if we’re going to take care of them and stop the pandemic, we have to use churches because in many villages, that’s the only thing that’s there.
CP: And that’s what you’re doing in Rwanda, correct?
Warren: Yes, we’re building a model of that in Rwanda. And we’re planning to do this through the P.E.A.C.E. Plan, where churches actually take on health care issues in villages where there are no clinics and never will be. Most villages in the world will never ever have a doctor. There just aren’t enough doctors. So you have to train normal people in churches to do health care. So “O” is to offer nutrition and medication and also recovery because churches can help people recover from drugs. And then the “P” stands for “pledge yourself to one partner.” Now again, we know everyone’s not going to do that. But just because not everybody will do it doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. What I heard a lot of times at conferences was, “Well, it doesn’t work in this situation.” Well, so what? That doesn’t mean it never works. What if it works 90 percent of the time? Certainly, if people would pledge themselves to one partner for life, that would end the AIDS pandemic very quickly.
Now when you ask me what I’m interested in, I’m interested in doing both. I want to “slow” it and I want to “stop” it. So I’ll use anything I can to help save a life.
CP: Reports indicated that although there was an increase in the involvement of faith groups at the conference, they were still underrepresented and the program itself had little mention of topics relating to faith. What is your opinion on that?
Warren: That’s exactly right. There were very few Christian leaders there at the actual conference itself and almost nobody was represented on the program of the conference. I felt there was a real, in many ways, a spiritual battle going on in the conference between differing world views. But we cannot solve the AIDS pandemic without the Church. It just can’t be done. Government alone can’t do it, business alone can’t do it. They’ve proven that. It’s going to take the churches with their volunteers and their distribution around the world, and with their care and compassion. It can’t be done without the Church.
CP: Could you describe your interaction with interfaith leaders as well as those who were at the conference not representing a faith group such as researchers and activists? Did you sense any kind of prejudice against the Church or did they openly welcome you and the P.E.A.C.E. Plan in fighting this battle?
Warren: The reactions were mixed. The first reaction was surprise, like “what are evangelicals doing here?” and we believe that’s where they ought to be. If Jesus were here today, he’d be working to help people who were stigmatized by AIDS. AIDS is the leprosy of the 21st century. It’s the disease that everybody’s afraid of and no one wants to talk about. Jesus hung out with lepers and he would be with people who have HIV/AIDS. There is no doubt that I met some people there who were completely opposed to the Church having any role. In fact, I found that in many ways, the Church is more willing to work with others to stop AIDS than they’re willing to work with us.
CP: Why is that?
Warren: Because they want you to change your beliefs in order to work with you. They say, if you drop what you believe about homosexuality, premarital sex, drug use, and behavioral change, then we can work with you. Here’s the logic of that: it’s so illogical. If you demand that every person of faith put their faith on the shelf in order to work on the pandemic, you’ve just ruled out most of the world because most of the world has a faith and it will never be solved by just people who have no faith at all. There are 2.3 billion Christians in the world. There are a billion Muslims. There are almost 800,000 million Hindus, 600,000 million Buddhists. If you say, ‘You have to put these beliefs on the shelf in order to work with us,’ if you can only work with people you agree with, then you’ve ruled out most of the world. And I’m saying you don’t have to agree on everything to work on the things you agree on. My wife and I did meet a group of activists, some who were gay rights leaders, trying to show them love without compromising our convictions which is what Jesus did. He didn’t just say, ‘Anything you want to do is just fine,’ but he did love everybody.
CP: So what was your impression at the close of the conference? Was it of hope or impatience?
Warren: I have hope because I believe in Jesus Christ. I don’t think there’s any hope of the AIDS pandemic being solved without the Church. I’m very pessimistic without the Church. I’m very optimistic with the Church.
CP: I attended the Willow Creek Leadership Summit this month and it featured an interview with Bono and Bill Hybels. Bono had stressed that the Church helping the sick is not advice but a command. Would you say the same - that churches are mandated to get involved in the AIDS battle?
Warren: Absolutely. It’s not optional. If the Church is going to be the body of Christ, we have to do what Jesus did. And that’s what the P.E.A.C.E. Plan is all about. The P.E.A.C.E. Plan is just doing the five things that Jesus did when he was here on the earth. And the “C” and “P” says care for the sick. One third of Jesus’ ministry dealt with healing. It says he did preaching, teaching and healing in every village.
CP: Now that churches have begun to wake up through increased awareness on AIDS, especially after your first historic AIDS conference last year, what would your aim be for the churches attending this year's AIDS conference at Saddleback?
Warren: Well I think our goal is to realize the shortness of time. It’s time to act – as the conference in Toronto said, “Time to Deliver.” I think that’s a good phrase. It’s not enough to just have conferences and talk about it. We have to do something. We have to do it in our own backyards with the people in our own areas, in Jerusalem and Judea as Jesus said and also to the outermost parts of the world. We’re trying to move the Church in America from basically self-centered “consumerism” – is what I call it – to unselfish contribution. And in order to do that, it can’t just do it overnight. This is not a small battle. It’ll take the rest of my life to do this. But we believe that we’ve come up with a series of different campaigns to help a church actually grow and improve and become what we need to do. 40 days of purpose, 40 days of community, 40 days of vision and 40 days of peace are four campaigns in a row that help people prepare themselves to actually do these kinds of ministries.
CP: Could you elaborate on your partnership with Richard Feachem?
Warren: It’s described as a partnership, but it’s not a partnership. I just met with him for breakfast. For the global fund – which is not just for AIDS, but for tuberculosis and malaria – he was saying to me that they need to get more churches involved. They want to channel some of this money through churches in order to take on these diseases. And so we’re going to obviously notify all of our [Purpose Driven] network on how they can apply for some of that money to do ministry for people who have TB, malaria or AIDS.
He was saying, ‘We need to get more churches involved in this because when we go out into the countries we realize what you’ve been saying all along – that it’s the churches that are doing most of this ministry. There is a whole system of health care networks that churches have that need to be using this money.’
